Republicans on a Senate Judiciary Subcommittee took aim at the issue of fraud in Minnesota state government programs involving federal money on Wednesday.

The hearing turned feisty at times as Republicans blamed Gov. Tim Walz and Attorney General Keith Ellison, and Democrats responded by highlighting what they call fraud within the President Donald Trump administration.

“I get it, you dislike Trump,” Sen. Ted Cruz. R-Texas, said during one exchange with Robert Weissman, co-president of the progressive Public Citizen group. “Would you agree the fraud in Minnesota was staggering and shocking?” he asked Weissman.

“I agree there is fraud in Minnesota,” Weissman responded. “I don’t believe these estimates are grounded in any evidence I’ve seen.”

He was referring to estimates of fraud amounts from Minnesota Republicans based on a figure from former Assistant U.S. Attorney Joe Thompson, who put that number at $9 billion during a news conference in December.

Thompson acknowledged then that it was based on “red flags” he’s seen during fraud investigations and not on actual evidence.

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David Hoch, who describes himself as an independent journalist, also testified. “How broad do you believe the evidence shows the fraud in Minnesota was?” Cruz asked Hoch.

“It’s easily in excess of $30 billion when you take everything into account,” Hoch responded. He later told senators it could be as high as $80 billion.

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